02 - A shimmering scene

Written By Siloh Radovsky

A conversation with Selah Saterstrom

Experimental Practice - Episode 2
16 June, 2023

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Episode description

Siloh sits down with Selah Saterstrom to discuss literary form and divination, their intersections with uncertainty, and the powerful cross-pollination of different parts of ourselves. 

Selah tells us, “Don't lose yourself in fields of bland absence. The engagement with the mystery that creates the work, the work being an artifact signaling back to that engagement–that is the work. And the visitations that are our poems are our stories, they can only be uniquely nuanced through us, through our beings, and the mysteries collaborating with those stories through us to become manifest in the world.” 

Selah Saterstrom is the author of five books— Rancher (Burrow Press/Stetson University, 2021), Ideal Suggestions: Essays in Divinatory Poetics (Essay Press, 2017), Slab (Coffee House Press, 2015), The Meat and Spirit Plan (Coffee House Press, 2007), and The Pink Institution (Coffee House Press, 2004). She teaches and lectures across the United States, is on faculty in the University of Denver’s English and Literary Arts program, and runs Four Queens, a platform celebrating Divination and Divinatory Poetics. You can stay up to date with her classes and offerings here.

If you liked this episode, check out Siloh’s Substack about experimental creative practice and daily life. You can find Siloh on Instagram @silohrad.

Outro music by Siloh. Thank you to Ethan Camp for help with audio editing and mastering.

Mentioned in this episode

Transcript

Siloh: Welcome, Selah. I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you. And I wanted to open up by asking you to describe your creative practice and its relationship to divination. Like I think often the question that's posed is like, how did these things come together? But I think maybe the question is sort of how have these things always been entwined and in relationship, perhaps coming from a similar place. So just opening up by describing your, your practices and the relationships to each other.

00:01:01

Selah: Well, Siloh, thank you so much for the opportunity to be in conversation with you. We, it's a privilege to be asked thoughtful questions, and I am just delighted on this beautiful spring day to be chatting with you. Um, what a great question. You know, I say a lot and jokingly that the longer I teach creative writing workshops, and the longer I teach divination and I teach both, the less I can tell the difference. And, and, and it's, that's really true. Um, you know, I would say, so for me, I, it is, I think the two are intertwined. And I, I really think of divinations almost as a hermeneutic approach. It is a commitment to a certain type of awareness to position yourself toward the text in a certain sort of way as a reader of, of books of the world, of cards, of dynamics.

And so divination for me feels almost like a position to occupy in the universe, and it's also, of course, a craft. Um, and I think that like hard readings and poems for me come from the same place, the same field. And so I feel that they have a lot of kind of crossover and dovetailing, um, in that regard. Um, yeah. So, um, I would say that I think that where I sense creative writing and divination overlapping, first and foremost is in agreement to practice awareness. You know, writing and divination are these privatized events, but it's also about being in the world in a certain way as one who reads. Um, so yeah. So I don't know. I'll stop there. Those are some initial thoughts to your great question. And there's much more I'm sure to say, but yeah.

00:03:03

Siloh: Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. Um, in terms of your trajectory as both a writer and a reader of the world and of cards, um, what do you feel like, like have there been any particularly impactful turning points or moments of, um, perhaps standing at a crossroads?

00:03:30

Selah: Hmm. I mean, what, what a great question. There have definitely been moments in my life that have punctured all the layers and, and made a great impact in terms of my relationship to narrative and divination as a narrative art.

So, you know, and I can, I can think of certain instances, the death of–usually death actually–and, um, death and trauma <laugh>. Um, but, but not always, you know, I will never forget the first time I touched my cards after my daughter was born, you know, so, so, you know, divination, the cards, it's like, it's almost like a way of like, um, <laugh>, it's a, it's its own kind of diary. It's, um, its presence is always with me. I could, it's all of the impactful moments have nuanced me and therefore made me a more nuanced reader. And, um, so that, that's what feels true for me, around that question.

00:04:44

Siloh: Yeah. Were you, when you started to inhabit academic, um, and literary sort of institutions and establishments, um, was. Where did those kind of entwined practices, like how did you navigate their interconnections when entering into those establishments? And also perhaps at a more kind of concrete level, like what has your trajectory been through those institutions as a writer and as a human?

Selah: Thank you for that question. So, um, yes. Gosh, there's lots to say. I'll try to be efficient. Um, and again, thanks for the question. So, you know, when I came into academics, um, I didn't really have a narrative of, of what I thought it might be like, and I will say it's been a hard learning curve for me. Yeah. Um, understanding how I calibrate to the institution, understanding too, very clearly, clearly the ways I benefit have benefited from it and figuring out how all of these kind of, um, aspects of my identity intersect in the space of the institution. Which, you know, the thing about academics is it's, it's perhaps because people tend to experience it as a vocational experience, their identities are very wrapped up <laugh> in, in their, in their profession, in their work. But anyway, um, so I–it's been a learning curve.

And so this June, I will have been in Denver. I came here 18 years ago this June to work at DU. And I was fortunate because not long after I came here, Anne Waldman really changed my life just by coming into my life as a presence, um, as a goddess, as a mentor, as a, as a, as a friend. And she, of course, is running the summer writing program at Naropa, and she invited me to teach summer workshops. Um, and so I immediately just started teaching Divinatory Poetics, that's what it was called. And I did that. I refined that workshop every summer, and then in time it just naturally began to interrupt <laugh> my DU classroom. And so I began to teach graduate classes and divinatory poetics. Um, and so, you know, and I will say the, the, the longer I have persisted in the institution, the less I have been concerned about controlling how my identity is perceived, which is probably always a losing battle. Because, you know, I think I had anxiety as a young academic that these interests, these proclivities, these obsessions, these gifts, um, would be taken as a, a lack of sign of a lack of rigor, you know, and that sort of thing. So I had all this conditioning and, um, that I've had to deconstruct <laugh>. I've had to examine my relationship with the institution. Um, and I, I am at a place now where it's like I just ever am moving towards just teaching what I want <laugh>. Um, but also my relationship with the institution is always changing.

00:08:36

Siloh: I think one thing that's super fascinating to me about your background is that you also have a background in philosophy or religious studies, or, or both. I don't know if I'm, um, correct there, but you did extensive doc, um, like pre doc–you almost have a PhD, or you have a PhD. I'm not quite sure, um, what that trajectory is, but you made a, uh, kind of split towards the literary arts as itself a critical medium. So there's that element of divination and creative writing, but also, um, creative forms as a form of kind of critical engagement with the world.

Selah: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Siloh: Yeah. So I'm curious, I, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about how those have been enmeshed.

00:09:24

Selah: Yes. Thank you for the question. So I did my undergraduate degree at Millsaps College, a small liberal arts college in Mississippi in religious studies. And there met Dr. Mark Ledbetter, who, who was doing, had written a book on Toni Morrison, and he came in, um, to religious studies, and he was a hermeneutics guy, and he just, uh, was just a, you know, um, a very activating force in my educational trajectory, and being introduced to hermeneutics and just feeling like this is the thing. And, you know, hermeneutics is that discipline, that kind of between, um, religious studies, um, divinity, um, practices and philosophy. And so he, um, really introduced me to, to contemporary hermeneutics and put me in touch with Dr. David Jasper, who was the dean, um, of the School of Divinity at the University of Glasgow in Scotland, and was running a program at the time called the Postmodern Center for this study of literature and Theology.

And it was this kind of extraordinary program, this think tank, this experiment, this, um, international, um, group of scholars. And so I went there and did a master's degree, um, foc with my focus on hermeneutics. And, um, and then after that began my PhD work also through the University of Glasgow, um, after a break and a discernment process. And, um, and so I got to the a b, D phase, um, of things. And when I was writing the PhD, I was going through this thing where before I could turn in a critical chapter, <laugh>, I remember this one particular meeting, um, before I could turn in a critical chapter to my, to my director, Dr. David Jasper, a wonderful, incredible scholar and, um, mentor and director. I would have to write really terrible, awful short stories. And they always feature Jesus having sexual misadventures. And so here, you know, bless him, this man reading these very raunchy stories about Jesus.

And then after we got that out of the way, we could talk about the critical chapter, but I had this extremely intense need to work out my theological concerns creatively. Yeah. And it, and it even a desire to privilege that before talking about the, the critical work. So I took a break from my PhD work. Um, I was in the writing phase, the de you know, um, drafting the dissertation phase. Anyway, in that gap, I ended up writing my first novel. And that first I ended up studying with Rebecca Brown at Goddard College. And, um, my, wrote my first novel, and that novel kind of set a trajectory. Um, and, you know, it was published almost 20 years ago, so this was a while ago. Um, and that led me to teaching creative writing and applying to this job at the University of Denver <laugh> and coming here. And so, um, you know, for a long time, you know, I would get letters like, are you going to finish? You know, I'm just, the pause and this kinda life bloomed inside that gap. Um, so that's my academic trajectory.

00:13:26

Siloh: That's so fasci–Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Selah: No, that's, that's a, yeah, that's just to give you a sense of the trajectory, if that's interesting. I don't know. <laughs>

00:13:34

Siloh: No, that's fascinating. I think in part, because something that I want to ask you about as well is literary form, and its construction. And I see in that pairing of those raunchy short stories with your critical chapters, it's almost like a, a precursor to your–your novels have such dynamic range in terms of their form, and I feel like you, you have this amazing ability to sort of hue closely to what the material wants rather than using this pre-constructed shape or narrative arc. So I wanna, I wanna ask you about that as well. Um, but that's really interesting to sort of see how it's almost like a need to process these things to, in relationship to each other, the critical writing and the creative forms, and how the creative form becomes a vehicle of critical inquiry, but also one that can be a much more holistic and sort of honoring the nature of the material.

00:14:43

Selah: Mm-hmm. <affirmative> It was the, it was the medium, the tool, the genre, whatever, however we wanna think of it the way <laugh> for me personally, to best embody and work out and work through my critical concerns, and perhaps because of creative writing's engagement with uncertainty and, um, and my experience of that as a writer. Um, but, you know, I love this question. I love forms, I love literary forms, and I am very, you know, kind of just at a very steady, um, pace, have been obsessed with a shimmering scene where form and content meet that, you know, particular crossroads. And, um, and all that goes into that. And I will say that the forms that I typically work with in my books, they eventually arrive out of a sense of necessity, um, necessity and experimentation, <laugh>, um, kind of. Um, but, you know, I think that, like, when I think back to writing those raunchy stories, while doing this kind of, um, you know, high theoretical work, you know, and that, that combination, it was like in my being, I was, um, longing for New Narrative and autotheory, though I didn't even know those terms. I wouldn't have recognized those categories at that time. And so, you know, I remember reading, uh, Bob Glück’s Long Note on New Narrative. Um, and just being like, I, I feel like I make sense to myself, you know? Um, and that's, you can find that on the internet. And of course, it's also in the fabulous, always relevant anthology, Biting the Error. Um, and then autotheory is a category that finally has visibility in the institution, the academic institution, thanks to women of color and queers. And, you know, often, you know, feminists, you know, um, and I look at what the, the, the ra–I feel like autotheory's position in the academy is always radical. And I feel very, very grateful for its visibility and those whose labor made that visibility possible. Um, but, you know, it is, this is a, this is a positionality–autotheory–that values the body as a, you know, valid citational source. Um, that, um, you know, all deconstructs and offers alternatives to, um, patriarchal structures and, and power structures. And it's just such a, you know, so yeah. So I feel very grateful for New Narrative, um, movement. I feel very grateful for, um, autotheory, um, as well in terms of, in terms of forms in this moment and how we approach forms in this moment.

00:17:55

Siloh: Yes. Me as well. Yeah. There's a line in your long essay and book rancher that came to mind just now, actually. Um, and I think there's something here about, so there's the body, the, the physical form of, you know, of who we are, the physical form of our creative work, but also the ghosts that haunt us, and sort of the ways that we articulate the things that we already know but have not been said. And also the ways that we see things that are otherwise invisible, kind of without a medium to channel it. And there's a line you write, words are haunted by bodies, and bodies are full of words, which are also ghosts. It is this communion junction that so often undergirds the experience of writing for me. And I wanted to ask you about kind of in the, in the, the details of, um, bringing that work to life. Like, what does it look like for you to sort of give form to the things that are hard to see or hard to say, um, particularly when that material is sort of unstable and difficult to pin down and, and perhaps, um, perhaps Rancher as an example, if, if you're comfortable discussing that process.

00:19:33

Selah: Yes. Gosh, what a wonderful question. And so much comes up for me. I'll try to like, you know, pick one of the threads and follow. But I think in general, my position towards form writing Rancher certainly is—I'm very, and people will laugh who know me, cuz I'm always saying this one quote over and over again that I attribute to Steven Moore, the great hermeneutics, um, religious study scholar, author of God's Gym, and also, um, God's Beauty Parlor – great, great writer. He has a new book out, I believe. Um, but anyway, he talks about this idea of responding in kind and not bringing an analytical jackhammer to a parabolic event. But responding to a, the mystery and an idiom of mystery as a relational, resonance-filled way of knowing that invites emergence and emergent thinking. And, um, and so I think, you know, when I'm writing a book, it's the sense, it's just the sense too…It's like, how do you know something's a book or a, a project or an essay, or whatever the case may be, I always get this sense that like something has set up shop in like my energetic field. Like it's just suddenly there's a presence there. You know, it's a structure, it's an idea that's kind of gained, uh, kind of weight <laugh>. And, um, and so it's like, okay, now I'm gonna give form to that. First and foremost I'm gonna give attention to it. Form is a, is a mode of attention. It's a way to give something attention. And I, and I seek to give it attention in the spirit of Stephen Moore's idea of responding in kind. And so, um, you know, and I think that, uh, writing provides us endless opportunities to practice non-attachment. And that there are those crossroads moments in writing processes where we can relinquish what we thought we were writing, what we hoped we were writing, what we were so sure we were writing, and, and instead receive what is the story is actually doing, how it's working through us, what it's, what it's doing on the page.

And, um, and that's a moment where we acknowledge we're collaborating with uncertainty in the mystery and in the process of writing. I love that moment, even though it can be very painful, <laugh>, it's like, oh, damn, I thought this novel was about this one thing. Turns out it is about this other thing. But, you know, so I think that, you know, um, to, to give something form is to give a definition and form, um, you know, how does the form support the content? How does it realize tones tucked within the content? I'm interested in that question as a technician of writing as well. Um, and so, you know, with Rancher, um, you know, that book was such an interesting process. They all–all the books–have their own trajectories, and they're all interesting and unique. And Rancher kind of began in a space of disassociation, and it was really a space of like, language kind of looking like a, like a, I don't know, a firework going off and then gathering into this kind of, um, you know, basket. You know, it braided together into this kind of vessel, this shape that could be engaged with. And it involved a lot of research, which was really fun. And, you know, I spent hours and hours and hours, I read whole books about spiders, <laugh>, you know, research that doesn't necessarily show up in the very brief, you know, work that it is. But tons of research on Maria Goretti, you know, who's long been a saint that, um, I have been familiar with, but really doing the deep dive, um, again with her and so on. So, so following these research threads, which just always pinged another place to look. And so this kind of network just acquired visibility just through paying attention. Rancher was really born kind of of that space.

00:24:03

Siloh: With your research process, do you feel like you have an intuitive sense of where diversion fits into the process and how it's distinguished from–Well, this is an, an interesting tension because I think that there's this, this way in which avoidance becomes a part of the form of the book. So for listeners who haven't read it, you start out with this sort of, um, statement that you don't know what to say, but there's this event that's going on that involves black widow spiders, sort of something that's happening in your social world. And that, that, um, motif of the black widow spider, which initially appears as sort of like a distraction, ends up becoming like a very significant, um–I don't wanna say symbol, because it's more than sort of a metaphor, but it becomes sort of a, a scaffold that's very meaningful to sort of the field of the essay. Um, and I feel like with a writing process, it can be hard to tell sometimes when a diversion is avoidance of a, of a less helpful kind versus a surrender to kind of where the process wants to go. So I'd be really curious if you, if you have thoughts on that topic.

00:25:31

Selah: Oh my gosh, Siloh, thank you for that question and for your amazing engagement and reading of Rancher. I really appreciate your insights. Um, oh my gosh, look, this is ringing all the bells for me. Yes. Something I have definitely thought about, that fine line where diversion is, um, not–it ceases to be poignant, <laugh>, shall we say, in the work. And so, you know, with Rancher, one thing I, you know, noticed. One thing I wanted to really explore as a person and as a writer was diversion as a position, you know, as its own position, not as an avoidance of a position, but in, but a but as you were saying, you know, it becomes its own positionality. And I'm particularly interested in how that works for survivors of assault and sexual assault. I think it has a unique meaning, um, to, um, to, to folks who've experienced any sort of sexual trauma, right.

You know, and there's also this sense, it's like, okay, I'm in this loop to repetition pattern of diverting, you know, where I wanna talk about the trauma, but now I'm talking about, you know, this other thing that leads to this other thing. And it's like, okay, at a certain point, you know, rather than trying to solve or resolve that I'm gonna center that and I'm gonna make that the mechanism through which to talk about this type of trauma. And it makes me think of, you know, the nine of Pentacles, the bird lady, and her idea of skillful will, working with what you already have to create the most poignant result or repurposing existing resources to move forward <laugh>. And so, um, so yeah. So rather than trying to, I just was like, I'm gonna include the diversions, you know, the diversion is part of the trauma, the ways that, um, uh, scheming or splitting, disassociation. Um, it can be one fracturing the way that, the way that that works in trauma. But also, I love what you said, I also think this idea that the diversion, if we lean into it, can become the door we walk through into the miracle, right. Into the healed iteration of the wound. And so the black widow is a diversion, but it also ends up leading her, the narrator, the “I” that wrote that, right, to herself, to myself. And so, um, yeah. Um, and I think in terms of research, like, okay, but like now I'm researching am I just–am I just like avoiding the work at the library? You know, is, is this just too much fun? Right. And I think the way that I may handle that is just intuitively, and I think sometimes it's okay to, um, a lot of times we're doing deep hard work and maybe just having fun at the library, jumping down some rabbit holes can be okay. Some days, actually I think we need to be kind to ourself. We are doing deep work. But I, I would say that how I monitor when a diversion is like positive versus like, I'm avoiding the work is, it feels good to my system. I'm just like, yeah, there, there's just, there's some, it feels good to my system to be with a spark. So yeah. Intuitive perhaps.

00:29:03

Siloh: Yeah. Which reminds me of what you said at the beginning of our conversation, sort of about, um, a position. So it's like you're honoring that position, whatever form that takes. It's not about outward evidence of productivity necessarily.

Selah: Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's, it is about tracking, um, a shimmering thread in pursuit of understanding, which doesn't mean resolving or solving. So.

Siloh: Yeah. And as you said, to the failure to sort of keep a firm grasp on what we think the thread is, is also a part of how those portals open up, you know? Possibility. Um, something I've been curious about for, uh, as, as one of, as a reader of yours, is your relationship to plot. Because I feel like what we're discussing also relates to the narrative arc of our own relationship to a project. And I think flexible narrative or literary structures allow for that to be folded in, you know, and allow for those divergences perhaps to also be a part of the spongy sort of structure that we're working in. Um, but when you're writing a novel, how does plot inform perhaps your, your process or the way that you shape the work done? Do you—Yeah, or what is your relationship to plot? What do you think about plot?

00:30:47

Selah: Oh my gosh, <laugh>. Yeah. I was just talking with my students yesterday about plot, the conundrum, um, the conundrum of plot. Um, I love plot. I just love the word plot. It just feels like good in, in, in the inner sanctum of the mouth.

Siloh: Hearty!

Selah: Right. I, and the way I approach plot is, is, is kind of through, first it's the paradigm, the concept, right? I think of the grave plot. So I think of the ancestors and I think of land, a plot of land and the nuances and complexities around that. Um, and so, you know, tied up in this idea of plot are immediately just those associations for me. Um, but I think what I often feel is, is I think of CD Wright, and I'm recalling here from like the nineties, oh my gosh. Um, and, uh, an interview she gave in Poets & Writers, and she was asked something along the lines of, how do you keep writing such great books?

Which–fair question, you know, we all wanted to know, right? And she, her response was, you know, it's not about writing better, it's about seeing better. And I think about being a seer or one who sees, and, you know, and this idea, too, that she and others have also talked about that, um, narrative can happen anywhere that the conditions are conducive for an eruption. So thinking of like the weed that flowers, that breaks through the concrete crack and the interstate bypass, right? It's like, it's like narrative is, right. And so I guess, um, and you know, just in terms of my approach to plot, I, those things are kind of in my mind, <laugh> I suppose, that plot is everywhere all the time. It's wherever the potential for relation exists or interaction exists. Um, it's wherever interpretation might happen, you, you know, um, as well as well.

And so anyway, um, yeah. Plot. So that's kind of maybe the energetic portrait that I kind of carry around perhaps. But I think, you know, for me, um, the books, like, I'm thinking for example, of Slab: What is the plot of that book? Well, there's an event, and the event is that there has been a disaster. And then there is, um, a response to the disaster <laugh>, and that's the plot, you know. So the, the plots aren't complicated. Um, you know, they're, they're pretty bare bones, but it's about the proliferation that happens at the site of those, those junctures of, you know, of, of action. Um,

00:33:56

Siloh: A very beautiful way to think about plot. I also think too, of, uh, card reading. There's many little narratives that the reading as an architecture can hold . Your work holds, holds those many layers of narrative.

Selah: Yeah, I mean, I think card reading has been my greatest writing teacher, and card reading is a narrative art. It is about the juxtaposition of archives and potential stories, <laugh> that might rise, um, to, to greet an occasion in, in a way that is, can be quite profound, I would suggest. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, I often say that, you know, a deck of cards is an unfixed anthology. It's like it's table of contents. So it's like musical chairs, it's always shifting, you know? But furthermore, there's 78 chapters in that book, and each of those chapters is endless. So it's, it's a marvelous sort of text and instructive for those of us who are writers in my, in my view, <laugh>.

00:35:17

Siloh: Yeah, I agree. Um, I wanna ask you about, and this is perhaps returning to my opening question, but the day-to-day work of holding these different practices and parts of self, so the creative writer, the diviner, the academic, um, and in particular kind of finding agency and holding, um–staying grounded in one's own relationship to the work, because I feel like a lot of your creative work is invested in healing and community and a certain ethics of being in the world. And I think those things are not always facilitated by academic institutions as, um, yeah. I, I think that there's perhaps like a, a theoretical level of this question of like the approach, the attitude to being a creative person in the world, in this world, and then also the, the day-to-day kind of carving out space or holding kind of conceptual or psychic boundaries a around certain obligations in order to inhabit that approach or that attitude.

Selah: Thank you. That is a great question. It's a very big question. And I, there's had, there's so many responses to, to it for me that come up for me. So I'll try to just track a couple that maybe will be, um, I don't know, resonant, you know. I wanna say that, you know, these aspects of myself–the creative writer, the diviner, or the academic–that it has, not always…it has been, you know, that again, to refer back to that learning curve, I mentioned earlier, how to feel integrated with these intersections that constitute my being inside of the institution. And it has been trial and error. It has at times been painful. It is, it is at times just been, you know, kind of closeted. It is, it's, it's, it's looked all sorts of ways. I have experimented with many, many combinations and, um, and I had to find my own mentors, and I did.

And, you know, and I also have had some extraordinary colleagues that have modeled visionary approaches to being academics and being in the world. I think of Eleni Sikelianos, I think of Laird Hunt, I think of Julie Carr. I think of my colleagues here at Denver who, um, in so many ways really modeled ways to engage with the institution. Um, and it, anyway, but, but I have to say that like, um, I just have kind of given up on trying, again, this idea of trying to control my, how I'm perceived in, within the institution. And which doesn't mean I don't make certain choices about how I'm perceived. I totally do. But, but I just, I guess I feel those categories–creative, writer, divine or academic–they just are the kind of eruptions that have happened between their cordoned-off areas. They just, they're just kind of free flowing now.

There's a cross pollination there. And so I'm not trying in the same ways to keep, to control my image or to keep them separate in the institutional space. Um, and I would say personally, um, one thing that I notice about being a creative writer, being a diviner, being an academic, all of those things, they deeply inform one another in my personal experience of those aspects of myself, they're all intertwined. Um, but before I teach a class, I will say an internal simple prayer or invocation, which is along the lines of, may I be more than my fears, limitations and distractions. You know, this is not an original prayer to me. One that was shared about a teacher long ago, one that my mother, um, was fond of. Um, and I say the same thing before I do a reading, and I'll say the same thing, like, for a client with, you know, cards or a community member with cards, I say the same thing before I do a reading, before I get up and read a chapter of my book at a literary event.

You know, I say the same thing before a lot of different moments. And so I just noticed that the approach is what connects those vectors. Um, and so in terms, I wanna say one thing, too about, you know, you talked about, um, finding your agency in the institutional space. And, you know, for me, um, my experience is like, I got to academics and I finally kind of got a level of survival for myself. It's like, okay, you know, I'm gonna have a paycheck. I'm gonna have health insurance, you know, and it was like, there was this stability after not, you know, not, there not being stability. And it was kind of like, okay, finally I can rest. And then that's when all the stuff comes up to be healed. I didn't expect that. You know? And, um, so for me, the restoration of my agency, which is healing my relationship with authority figures and institutions, really began with healing from trauma in my childhood. You know, healing from the trauma of sexual assault. You know, the restoration book. Because in those, any, any instance where people or women, as you know, or femme identified, are not believed, the disbelief of one's proclamation will separate one from their agency, right? And so the restoration of agency for me has been about healing from the pain of not being believed. And so when that restoration happened, I had a very different relationship with the institution. I had new boundaries with the institution. And that's of course a work in progress. But, but I just, the restoration of one's agency, um, I think is is deeply connected to healing. And I think that the institution will trigger unhealed material, I think for sure. So yeah, some thoughts towards your great question. <laugh>

00:42:22

Siloh: My mountain of several questions.

Selah: Awesome questions.

Siloh: Thank you for that. Um, I think we're gonna start to wrap up. Um, but before we move on to our sort of final closure, um, kind of piggybacking on that original behemoth of a question: Any thoughts you might share around maintaining wellbeing–creative and spiritual wellbeing–as a writer, particularly amidst the clamor and clutter of competitiveness in literary worlds?

00:43:01

Selah: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Yeah, that's such a great question. And you know what, I just also wanna acknowledge, um, to your questions about how to stay safe in the institution, how to be a visionary in institutional spaces. And I wanna say it's, it is, the timing of these questions is so interesting. Um, it would feel disingenuous not to mention it, in fact, <laugh>, but I, this June, as I mentioned, will be 18 years that I've been at the University of Denver. And seven of those years I directed, uh, the creative writing program. And just this past week, a few days ago, I began the exit process. So I am, after 18 years, um, I am leaving full-time academia. And, um, I, as I'm leaving as a Full Professor, the only woman and only queer Full Professor in my department. And, um, and I hope that changes, um, and it's very important that that shifts.

Um, but yeah, so I am gonna be going, I'm gonna still have one foot in the academic world, and I'm excited about those teaching opportunities and, and whatnot. And, um, and visiting writer positions. Love, love the types of engagement that comes from the benefits of–one of the benefits of these institutional spaces, right? Um, but I'm gonna be going into private consulting and coaching work, and so I'm very excited. So I just, it would feel like, in light of those very profound questions you ask about the institution, I must also say that I have decided to yet again experiment with my relationship to it. And so I'll be I in the sense that I will be, um, this will be, I am, yeah, I'm, I'm moving on from the University of Denver, and so I'm contracted to teach one more class. So I will come back to Denver next spring quarter, teach that class–I'm hoping it will be on divination, <laugh>. And then my contract will be officially done. So, so anyway, so that's an interesting kind of, um, just coincidence to your questions.

But in terms of advice about the literary world, be feeling safe in the literary world, right? And not the clamor of competitiveness and how all of that works. And my encouragement there would be just like, don't lose yourself in fields of bland absence. The engagement with the mystery that creates the work, the work being an artifact signaling back to that engagement–that is the work. And the visitations that are our poems are our stories, they can only be uniquely nuanced through us, through our beings, and the mysteries collaborating with those stories through us to become manifest in the world.

And so it's just like, keep your eyes on your own lane, you know, make sure your own house is in order and take pleasure where you. And don't get lost in the field of bland absences, which is comparison and pettiness. And you know, cuz all that's identity stuff, none of that shit's gonna make you a better writer. If talking about other writers made us better writers, we'd all be like amazing writers, <laugh>, you know? And so it's just, it's not gonna help you be a better writer. Um, and so, yeah. And have good boundaries. I think that's important also.

00:47:00

Siloh: Well, Selah, thank you for that excellent advice and congratulations on the exciting news and your new adventures. Um, before we pull our card, would you want to tell listeners how they might work with you or where they might find you, particularly since it sounds like, um, you might be creating some new offerings?

Selah: Yes. Thank you for that question. So right now, I run a platform with Kristen Nelson, and it's called Four Queens, FourQueens.org. And it is a platform that celebrates Divinatory poetics, so creative arts conjuncting with oracular inclinations. Um, we offer a variety of programming. We have a literary series, reading series that's just been amazing. We have creative writing classes, we have divinatory poetics classes, we have divination classes. Right now, at the moment, behind the scenes, we're, we're doing a really big kind of, um, switching platforms and, and just kind of doing a big overhaul. So in August, September, we'll be relaunching Four Queens with a bunch of new programming. So right now the programming we do, two Sundays a month, 11:00 AM Mountain Time for one hour, we gather to do a divinatory poetics hour, and we have different guides. We've had the most marvelous folks lead these hours. And so we just say, come, receive the prompts, write. It's basically a generative writing class. Um, you don't have to share, it's not a workshop. Those are $10. And it supports our queer scholarship fund at Four Queens. So we run those two times a month, and you'll find that under “Calendar and Events,” in the Sunday section. And we also do, Kristen and I do, the first Sunday of every month, a community divination. That's a circle of folk who just get together. Kristen and I each give about a 15 minute forecast for the month ahead, and then we take questions, and those can be anonymous in private or they could be public. And so we're doing that, staying on with that programming. And then, um, next fall, launching some very exciting new programming along with our new platform. So I'm super excited, and so people can connect with me through Four Queens. I also offer divination sessions, um, that are booked through there, and coaching sessions. So I can be, so I can be found in the Four Queens realm for sure. And, um, yeah.

Siloh: Well I will definitely share the link for Four Queens in the show notes and can vouch for, um, just the richness of the Four Queens offerings and, um, have gotten so much out of them myself.

00:50:10

Selah: Hmm. Thank you so much. Um, thank you for being such a wonderful light of brilliance who's a part of that community for sure. And, um, so yes, thank you for your presence in those spaces. And thank you for this wonderful conversation. It's been really fun. I really appreciate the questions and, um, will continue to answer them in my head long after this conversation is done. I'm sure <laugh>.

Siloh: I'll be thinking about your answers, I think for a while. I got so much out of this. Um, so to, to close out, I was thinking we could each pull a card or some cards. Um, a theme that emerged for me for this reading would be, um, those of us who are perhaps at our own kind of crossroads around creative work, perhaps around identity. Um, and especially where letting go is in order–some kind of letting go or surrender.

Selah: Yes. I love it! I love it. Okay. How fun. I love that we're doing this. Okay, I have my cards down. I'm gonna take a moment, just see what pops. I'll report back. Hmm. Okay. Do you have your cards?

Siloh: It's still popping out.

Selah: Yeah. Take, yeah, take your time.

Siloh: Oh, hello!

Selah: <laugh>. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it. Will you restate what we're pulling cards on? Just as an invocation here. Yeah.

Siloh: Yes. Letting go particularly, um, around creative work and identity, or creative work and identity as letting go may be in order.

Selah: Mm-hmm. <affirmative> great. Yeah. Okay. I've got my cards ready at any point.

Siloh: I've got Death! It feels like the easy, easy, card to, to respond to. But, um, I think for me, this is always a sign that letting go is the right thing to do.

Selah: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.

Siloh: There are things on the other side of that. So, what we allow to come to life by shedding something. Um, and that shedding isn't just like the objects we hold, but sort of the clothes we wear or, um, the identities or roles that we inhabit. I don't know if you, um, would want to add anything to that.

Selah: I love that. I love that read of the Death card. And, you know, as you were sharing, I'm just reminded that like, you know, this comforting idea that letting go is the right thing, I think of when the flower releases the bloom, when it begins to acquire the visage of death, but it's actually a perfect time, you know, it's following its cycle and it's like, it's okay to let go. It's really just a, it was nice to make contact with that aspect of the death card.

Siloh: And I think too, especially like the seed of light that is inside, so like–there's a child on the Rider-Waite rendition, um, or the Pamela Coleman Smith, rendition of the card where it's sort of like the, the inner child is the portal or the pathway to follow.

00:54:36

Selah: Mm-hmm. I love that and believe that, you know, I believe that, uh. And I really think of the Sun card through the inner child and that figure in the Death card of the Pamela Coleman Smith iteration of the card. And yeah, it's like the inner child keeps the flame of wonder alive on, you know, the altar of the heart. And it's wonder that connects us to curiosity and makes us feel engaged, you know? And so I love thinking of the inner child as a path. That resonates for me. And, you know, and the thing, too, about the Death card, another thing I appreciate about it–it's just like, yeah, change comes for all of us. Change will happen, change is happening. But knowing that, the agency is located in deciding how you wanna react to that change. That's also empowering to remember.

Siloh: It's exactly what you said, too, about some of your pivotal experiences having to do, with on a more literal level, kind of that seismic change of loss.

Selah: Yeah. Right, right. For sure. Well, that is so appropriate for this, for this card reading. So I got the Five of Pentacles conjuncting with the World. And I love–I mean, this is a powerful conjunction and in my practice, it's a pretty straightforward message. And the message that kind of emerges from this conjunction, one of the primary tones that I'm kind of feeling here, is: you have to give up your old life for your new life, sometimes. You know. You have to let something die so something can be born. And that can include aspects of your identity. It can include all sorts of things, right. But just this idea that, you know, sometimes, um, there's a connection between death and rebirth, um, in a big way when it comes to our identity and the ways that our life can look, you know? So yeah, I just feel it's like, okay, the, the, the loss of this life means the birth of this life. And feeling the rich spectrum of that truth. So yeah. Hopeful!

Siloh: Mmmm. <affirmative>. This has been a real joy.

Selah: Aw, such a joy. Thank you so much for this lovely conversation on this beautiful spring morning. It's been a real pleasure and a privilege.

Siloh: Likewise.

Siloh Radovsky
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